sumagiri
07-23 12:27 PM
Guys,
I think we have talked and analyzed enough about how many visas available for August and September and pretty much arrived at conclusion that at the minimum 20K visas available. (Thanks to vdlrao).
Now we should talk about capability of USCIS and its processing speed? What is the normal approval rate with USCIS's regular processing. Also we heard that USCIS recruited many people, Do we suppose to see any improvement in processing. Do we think all the 20K visas will be used within 2 months?
If USCIS is going to approve only 5K visas over next 2 months, there is no point in talking how many visas left.
Thanks
GCWhru,
I went back and verified if there were calculations on how we got that 20K. I couldn't find one. Please point me to the source, if there is one.
As of now, All the mathematical and statistical estimations were on total EB2 usage and spill over for this year. Not on how many visas are left over or used up. Not all the spill over is left for these two months. Some or most of that spill over is already used up.
I think 20k was some guess based on number of labor filings from April 2004 to June 2006. The EB2 date move is based on USICS/DOS estimation on how many are documentarily qualified. It is important to remember that not every one with priority date before June 2006 are documentarily qualified. Some are still waiting for I-140 approval and some of them had RFEs.
Thanks
I think we have talked and analyzed enough about how many visas available for August and September and pretty much arrived at conclusion that at the minimum 20K visas available. (Thanks to vdlrao).
Now we should talk about capability of USCIS and its processing speed? What is the normal approval rate with USCIS's regular processing. Also we heard that USCIS recruited many people, Do we suppose to see any improvement in processing. Do we think all the 20K visas will be used within 2 months?
If USCIS is going to approve only 5K visas over next 2 months, there is no point in talking how many visas left.
Thanks
GCWhru,
I went back and verified if there were calculations on how we got that 20K. I couldn't find one. Please point me to the source, if there is one.
As of now, All the mathematical and statistical estimations were on total EB2 usage and spill over for this year. Not on how many visas are left over or used up. Not all the spill over is left for these two months. Some or most of that spill over is already used up.
I think 20k was some guess based on number of labor filings from April 2004 to June 2006. The EB2 date move is based on USICS/DOS estimation on how many are documentarily qualified. It is important to remember that not every one with priority date before June 2006 are documentarily qualified. Some are still waiting for I-140 approval and some of them had RFEs.
Thanks
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dealsnet
09-04 01:45 PM
So next time of election, take vacation and go home, do campaigning, spend money and vote out the govt. you dislike, if you are real serious.
Only the people that were part of those grabbings are happier. Let the poor people get back all their lands first and then you guys talk.
How about all the "Anna's" that were killed by him who came to him when he invited and then killed them mercilessly.
So, did you mourn when he killed all the "Anna's"? I am sure you would have distributed Sweets when "Anna's" were killed. Right?
Isn't it Jesus Christ right? Jesus is God and he punished YSR with such a worst killing. Even face could not be recognized.
Only the people that were part of those grabbings are happier. Let the poor people get back all their lands first and then you guys talk.
How about all the "Anna's" that were killed by him who came to him when he invited and then killed them mercilessly.
So, did you mourn when he killed all the "Anna's"? I am sure you would have distributed Sweets when "Anna's" were killed. Right?
Isn't it Jesus Christ right? Jesus is God and he punished YSR with such a worst killing. Even face could not be recognized.
Dyana
02-14 12:29 PM
Hi Bestia
I see your PD is Aug 2004 for EB3 ROW, and U already filed I 485.
I need some help: My PD is also Aug 2004, I'm in the EB3 ROW. When can I start filling I-485? The March VB says 01JAN2005. What is the last date I can file?
Thanks 4 help.
I see your PD is Aug 2004 for EB3 ROW, and U already filed I 485.
I need some help: My PD is also Aug 2004, I'm in the EB3 ROW. When can I start filling I-485? The March VB says 01JAN2005. What is the last date I can file?
Thanks 4 help.
2011 Disney/Pixar#39;s Toy Story 3#39;s
NKR
02-14 09:17 AM
Sorry for pasting the below post in the wrong thread, but I thought that people not residing in MI will have the tendency to by pass the thread that WD's post was in. I felt that we need to recognize and appreciate the efforts of people who worked towards this issue. If I remember right, Mark, WD and others took their time off to testify in state senate.
Immigration Voice in Detroit News
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...802140325/1008
"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.
"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."
__________________
MI Chapter testimony in State Senate ( Driving License issue) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY
Immigration Voice in Detroit News
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...802140325/1008
"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.
"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."
__________________
MI Chapter testimony in State Senate ( Driving License issue) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY
more...
rahulpaper
06-28 05:20 PM
the cycle for visa exhaustion has to happen before USCIS triggers action....its just not how many applications showed up on their door...and one(including me) should not feel toooo bad if we are not able to submit application becasue the visa numbers were exhausted. More painful will be if it is only based on applications received and mine went in a little later than others. lot of hard works has gone into prepraing this application. I would hire my attorney to put a suit against himself...
As i understand it...number of applications received by USCIS on july 2nd does not in any way affect the acceptance of application on july 22nd......do you see it as i see it
Its all theory ...Do you have any explanation why they rejected for the " Other workers" in june period
As i understand it...number of applications received by USCIS on july 2nd does not in any way affect the acceptance of application on july 22nd......do you see it as i see it
Its all theory ...Do you have any explanation why they rejected for the " Other workers" in june period
snram4
01-24 02:24 PM
Just because one guy is pointing out fraud in H1b he is not anti immigrant. Can you call entire congress is anti immigrant just for passing TARP restriction unanimously? But still we are optimistic of getting support from congress for EB reform. 99% of H1bs will not be impacted by this memo if that is implemented properly. For example even if USCIS does not approve h1b because he is having multiple layers of H1b still that position will be open and that can be filled by H1b person who is placed directly. The person who impacted by this memo will suffer a few weeks and he will find another job. Basically it will not impact H1b program or H1b persons. Even after the memo many H1bs were approved with third party consulting. Can you tell any denial based on the memo? But I am seeing many RFEs for H1b applications without client letter. That is normal and no one complaints about that
If you see JoeF in that thread, he is more of an anti-immigrant. There are many in our community who are happy at the plight of their fellow countrymen. That is no reason that people should support this non-sense memo.
In IV, members are more knowledgeable than those on that particular thread from Murthy forum. People are so ignorant that they are agreeing to whatever that JoeF( anti ) is saying. IV members are much smarter than that.
If you see JoeF in that thread, he is more of an anti-immigrant. There are many in our community who are happy at the plight of their fellow countrymen. That is no reason that people should support this non-sense memo.
In IV, members are more knowledgeable than those on that particular thread from Murthy forum. People are so ignorant that they are agreeing to whatever that JoeF( anti ) is saying. IV members are much smarter than that.
more...
Lasantha
12-14 03:53 PM
OK, sorry then. I missed that. ;)
Yes, Lasantha.. you are right. But that was one of mbartosik's points when he/she was comparing cost/benefit.
Yes, Lasantha.. you are right. But that was one of mbartosik's points when he/she was comparing cost/benefit.
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eastindia
01-16 09:54 AM
I have no problem with any individual but I hate my ex employer and their class ( in no uncertain terms ). I was earning for them , but he and his wife used to behave like big boss to me.Why I shed no tears for them. They think themselves as Ambani but will not hire few good marketing folks who can bring projects from direct clients. There business model is like the following example ( joke ). A bihari gone to punjab and started working for sardarji for food and shelter.While he asked the sardarji for food , he said go that building eat as much you want and take this tifin box and pack some food for me too. Just tell them that I have sent you . After some time Bihari came to know that it was Gurudwara and food was lunger. I consider these body shop no different then that Sardarji. Opening a co ( body shop ) requires phone and outlook. WOW. The h1b rules allow a space for them. With this new rule , they are gone for good. Let me make it very clear , I hate body shopper . It is mere chance that they are from particular state. I fully sympathize with all H1B holder and again let me insist all deserving H1b people will be better off with this memo. Let me quote a line from Ghalib " Jis diye me tel honge , rah jayenge bus wohi ".
Let me enjoy on potential demise of Body shopper including my ex employer. I am ready
Wow so ungrateful.
You make hole in the same vessel you eat.
You came to this country only because of a desi bodyshopper. Otherwise with your qualifications you cannot even dream of coming to USA on your own.
Unless you are IIT or IIM.. or some top engineering college, it is highly difficult for someone to come to USA on H1B and take a permanent job. The other route is to come for studies.
So after coming here by showing your desperation to earn dollars with an NIIT diploma or some shady donation college degree you came via a body shopper. You made a choice in life fully knowing what you are doing. Now you left your bodyshopper and want to hurt him and feel happy for the rule because you do not want others like you to come to US of A via bodyshoppers.
You know why? Because you do not want other Indians to come behind you and compete with you for jobs.
Learn to live and let live. Din't they teach you in India as an Indian value. Good luck with your greencard.
Let me enjoy on potential demise of Body shopper including my ex employer. I am ready
Wow so ungrateful.
You make hole in the same vessel you eat.
You came to this country only because of a desi bodyshopper. Otherwise with your qualifications you cannot even dream of coming to USA on your own.
Unless you are IIT or IIM.. or some top engineering college, it is highly difficult for someone to come to USA on H1B and take a permanent job. The other route is to come for studies.
So after coming here by showing your desperation to earn dollars with an NIIT diploma or some shady donation college degree you came via a body shopper. You made a choice in life fully knowing what you are doing. Now you left your bodyshopper and want to hurt him and feel happy for the rule because you do not want others like you to come to US of A via bodyshoppers.
You know why? Because you do not want other Indians to come behind you and compete with you for jobs.
Learn to live and let live. Din't they teach you in India as an Indian value. Good luck with your greencard.
more...
newtoearth
05-03 01:30 AM
....
hair with Disney#39;s TRON: Legacy
Ramba
03-30 02:14 PM
Ramba, can you please update your profile? I am surprised a Brazilian knows much about Indian politics.
If a Italian citizen controll the major Party of India; why not a Brazilian knows more?:)
Any way I will update soon....
If a Italian citizen controll the major Party of India; why not a Brazilian knows more?:)
Any way I will update soon....
more...
snram4
01-22 05:48 PM
That is always one of the option for me. You do not need to tell that. Similarly everyone has the same choice. If some thing does not work out in USA anyone can find an excellent opportunity in India. Not just, if anyone like to go to India they can go anytime. No need to worry about GC or H1b issues
Then please pack your bags and leave the country in the next flight.
Then please pack your bags and leave the country in the next flight.
hot More: Disney Game Trailers
praveenuppaluri
04-01 03:32 PM
Mirage, thanks for the correction..
wondering what he is going to promise to people of Moradabad !?!
Litte correction dude, Hyderabad people know this man from top to bottom, so he's contesting from Moradabad.
wondering what he is going to promise to people of Moradabad !?!
Litte correction dude, Hyderabad people know this man from top to bottom, so he's contesting from Moradabad.
more...
house CLOT x TRON: Legacy logo
chintu25
09-24 10:16 AM
Emailed All
:rolleyes: Whatever works :rolleyes:
matt_kelly@specter.senate.gov, <lisa_owings@specter.senate.gov BOUNCED
:rolleyes: Whatever works :rolleyes:
matt_kelly@specter.senate.gov, <lisa_owings@specter.senate.gov BOUNCED
tattoo with Disney#39;s TRON: Legacy
lazycis
02-14 01:01 PM
You may consider it as shameless plug :D, but I want to put this reference as the prove that the lawsuit does work when you deal with the USCIS
http://boards.immigrationportal.com/showpost.php?p=1862057&postcount=15637
http://boards.immigrationportal.com/showpost.php?p=1862057&postcount=15637
more...
pictures logo front and center.
krishmunn
07-27 06:11 PM
Oh yeahhh..."1099-int" was a rhetorical statement as you mentioned it.
Don't worry I have already done my homework with law offices or CIS, as I had to show all incomes during interviews. Keep on squeaking.
One somewhat unrelated question --- Why did you have to attend an interview with CIS (and show your income) ?
AFAIK CIS interviews only during adjudication of 485 (for some cases) .. never heard of CIS interviewing for extension of H1 or other matters. If they are interviewing EB 3 2006 cases it is a good sign
Don't worry I have already done my homework with law offices or CIS, as I had to show all incomes during interviews. Keep on squeaking.
One somewhat unrelated question --- Why did you have to attend an interview with CIS (and show your income) ?
AFAIK CIS interviews only during adjudication of 485 (for some cases) .. never heard of CIS interviewing for extension of H1 or other matters. If they are interviewing EB 3 2006 cases it is a good sign
dresses Tron: Legacy is going to be
Green_Always
08-15 05:42 PM
Why should it be a surprise?
How do PoE officers know if he is a film star in some foreign language movies?
Even if they knew, why is SRK so special that he should not be checked?
There was an instance when a pop singer from India(Daler Mehdi) was accused of smugling illegal immigrants disguised as musicians. Point is, if somebody is a celebrity, that does not make him/her un touchable?
I agree 100% simply Indian Media make more of this. I know only one face of SRK, who knows such big guys what they are into ?
How do PoE officers know if he is a film star in some foreign language movies?
Even if they knew, why is SRK so special that he should not be checked?
There was an instance when a pop singer from India(Daler Mehdi) was accused of smugling illegal immigrants disguised as musicians. Point is, if somebody is a celebrity, that does not make him/her un touchable?
I agree 100% simply Indian Media make more of this. I know only one face of SRK, who knows such big guys what they are into ?
more...
makeup The Japanese poster for quot;Tron
gc28262
09-04 10:16 AM
IV admins, Chandu,
Please delete this thread or move this away from the main page.
This thread is a good fodder for antis.
Please delete this thread or move this away from the main page.
This thread is a good fodder for antis.
girlfriend a Disney-féle TRON: Legacy
PlainSpeak
01-14 03:54 PM
PlainSpeak, go check my posts - I have only addressed your eb discussion issue, and nothing else. (If you decide to answer this post, multi-quote all my posts on this thread - lets see where I have abused you! - I have 4 posts of which one is a repeat)
If you had thought for a moment and seen that my previous posts got posted twice - you would have realized something amiss, or if you saw my last post you would have realized that it was not edited to remove anything! However, to you everything seems to be "out to get you" mode, and you talk of not attacking personally, and yet here you are!
Refrain from dragging parents and spouses (which country/era do you think I am living in to have spouses?) into this. If you call for civility, then you got to be civil first!
I don't know whether you are wasting your time, but I definitely am!
BTW, if you do not want to go ahead to share the details of making your plans work, in spite of some members asking, what is the point in your continued answers?
my friend willegtgc i am making an effort to be civil (and you go to be understanding about this). If i am talking in the context of everyone is about to get me that is because i have got so many abuses from 360 degress that it is hard to remember who was nice and non abusive and who was not
And yes that was spouse not spouses (I am sorry about that spelling mistake) but you did post a message which was a . which was in relation to another members query about whether i am a man/women or something else. Now a . is called a Point which is also a degrotary reference to a person who is neither a man or a women. Now please do not deny it because there is no way you can fight that accusation off. I think if i dig deep down i wil come across other abuses made by you but i regress from the point
Ok i have officialy got carpel tunnel syndrome.
If you think you are wasting your time please stop responding to this post. I am up to my neck trying to reply back to you everytime. This is so simple why can you not do it. Do not reply anymore to this post anymore and atleast youwil have a good night sleep
And do not even think of asking me about my plan. Where the heck do i have the time to write out anything concrete with people like you dissing me from every side. Now some one out here has asked me something similar and when i get time off from people like you (Yes YOU) i will get a chance to work on it and post it next.
May be this week end will be a very interesting time for a discussion or maybe not. So take my advise my friend.
If you get what i am saying i woul suggest there be no more posts from you, because beleive me i wil ignore your post. If you have some free time i would suggest you take some time and try to get my negetive count down. It is right now 4000.
You (Everyone at IV) keep asking new members to beleive in what they are doing and make an effort without looking at the result right? You keep asking me what i did till now for IV. Ok now here is your chance. Think about it.
PlainSpeak giving and impression of what willegtgc should be thinking instead
Maybe Maybe Maybe this person was handled in a wrong way. Maybe if i show some kind of respect for the idea and for the person maybe it will make this persons day because maybe this person was speaking sense and maybe this person has the guts to follow up on what was said if given a chance to write something concerete, so maybe i willgetgc will give him a chance...
If you had thought for a moment and seen that my previous posts got posted twice - you would have realized something amiss, or if you saw my last post you would have realized that it was not edited to remove anything! However, to you everything seems to be "out to get you" mode, and you talk of not attacking personally, and yet here you are!
Refrain from dragging parents and spouses (which country/era do you think I am living in to have spouses?) into this. If you call for civility, then you got to be civil first!
I don't know whether you are wasting your time, but I definitely am!
BTW, if you do not want to go ahead to share the details of making your plans work, in spite of some members asking, what is the point in your continued answers?
my friend willegtgc i am making an effort to be civil (and you go to be understanding about this). If i am talking in the context of everyone is about to get me that is because i have got so many abuses from 360 degress that it is hard to remember who was nice and non abusive and who was not
And yes that was spouse not spouses (I am sorry about that spelling mistake) but you did post a message which was a . which was in relation to another members query about whether i am a man/women or something else. Now a . is called a Point which is also a degrotary reference to a person who is neither a man or a women. Now please do not deny it because there is no way you can fight that accusation off. I think if i dig deep down i wil come across other abuses made by you but i regress from the point
Ok i have officialy got carpel tunnel syndrome.
If you think you are wasting your time please stop responding to this post. I am up to my neck trying to reply back to you everytime. This is so simple why can you not do it. Do not reply anymore to this post anymore and atleast youwil have a good night sleep
And do not even think of asking me about my plan. Where the heck do i have the time to write out anything concrete with people like you dissing me from every side. Now some one out here has asked me something similar and when i get time off from people like you (Yes YOU) i will get a chance to work on it and post it next.
May be this week end will be a very interesting time for a discussion or maybe not. So take my advise my friend.
If you get what i am saying i woul suggest there be no more posts from you, because beleive me i wil ignore your post. If you have some free time i would suggest you take some time and try to get my negetive count down. It is right now 4000.
You (Everyone at IV) keep asking new members to beleive in what they are doing and make an effort without looking at the result right? You keep asking me what i did till now for IV. Ok now here is your chance. Think about it.
PlainSpeak giving and impression of what willegtgc should be thinking instead
Maybe Maybe Maybe this person was handled in a wrong way. Maybe if i show some kind of respect for the idea and for the person maybe it will make this persons day because maybe this person was speaking sense and maybe this person has the guts to follow up on what was said if given a chance to write something concerete, so maybe i willgetgc will give him a chance...
hairstyles Tron Logo on side of Queen
gc4me
03-27 10:19 AM
I did some internet search and found this Q&A in murthy.com
Cooool...people go ahead with LC Sub.
Q. I have a pending green card case based on a substituted labor. Do I need to worry about this proposed regulation?
�MurthyDotCom
A. It would not seem to affect pending green cards based on substituted labor, as long as the substitution was not being requested through the DOL. This regulation prohibits substitution through the DOL. So, if it were to go into effect, it is possible that it would end all pending requests for substitution of beneficiaries made to the DOL.
�MurthyDotCom
Most substitution requests are made via the USCIS at the I-140 petition filing stage. This involves labor certifications that have already been approved, and the substitution request is made in the filing of the I-140 petition at the USCIS. The regulation attacks this process by making labor certifications valid for only 45 days. Thus, all I-140s would have to be filed within 45 days of labor certification approval. Even if the regulation were to pass, however, it does not appear that it would have the power to terminate pending I-140s (even if based on LC substitution). If the cases are proper when filed, it does not seem that the regulation would extend to pending USCIS cases since the proposed regulation is a DOL, not a USCIS, regulation. If it were a USCIS regulation, then it could impact pending I-140 cases for which the labor certification is over 45 days old at the time of filing - not just LC substitution cases. Those cases with approved I-140s do not appear to be vulnerable to this proposed regulation.
How do you now that? Any sources?
If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.
Cooool...people go ahead with LC Sub.
Q. I have a pending green card case based on a substituted labor. Do I need to worry about this proposed regulation?
�MurthyDotCom
A. It would not seem to affect pending green cards based on substituted labor, as long as the substitution was not being requested through the DOL. This regulation prohibits substitution through the DOL. So, if it were to go into effect, it is possible that it would end all pending requests for substitution of beneficiaries made to the DOL.
�MurthyDotCom
Most substitution requests are made via the USCIS at the I-140 petition filing stage. This involves labor certifications that have already been approved, and the substitution request is made in the filing of the I-140 petition at the USCIS. The regulation attacks this process by making labor certifications valid for only 45 days. Thus, all I-140s would have to be filed within 45 days of labor certification approval. Even if the regulation were to pass, however, it does not appear that it would have the power to terminate pending I-140s (even if based on LC substitution). If the cases are proper when filed, it does not seem that the regulation would extend to pending USCIS cases since the proposed regulation is a DOL, not a USCIS, regulation. If it were a USCIS regulation, then it could impact pending I-140 cases for which the labor certification is over 45 days old at the time of filing - not just LC substitution cases. Those cases with approved I-140s do not appear to be vulnerable to this proposed regulation.
How do you now that? Any sources?
If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.
rahulpaper
06-28 04:58 PM
In that AILA reference of EB3 others for june... DOS asked USCIS that visas are exhausted..it wasnt USCIS directly jumping to conclusions.
my 2 cents..
Today, he emailed by HR directly and told them that "we will file everyone's 485 in first week of July ".
He also said that there is no need to panic because AILA is already threatening USCIS with lawsuit and right now its in negotiations state. (Whatever). He said that the thread from AILA will prevent USCIS from doing the same mischief again in July 2007 to EB2, and EB3 categories. (Somehow I dont buy that, I dont think USCIS is afraid of anyone and they are acting like and independent body ... like the Supreme court working on its own schedule and own whims).
So the thing is...he acknowledges what happened with EB3-other category in June and says that he will file in July first week (good for me and my other co-workers) but he is still sticking to his guns that "It wont happen because USCIS will be scared of AILA".
What USCIS has done for EB3-other worker category is violation of federal regulation and it cannot just ignore the visa bulletins because it feels like doing so and its having a bad day. But nonetheless, the people who make these decisions dont get sued. The agency gets sued, and those lawsuits are fought by internal lawyers who are on USCIS payroll. They get some heat for violating the federal regulation but its not like they would lose their shirt over it.
my 2 cents..
Today, he emailed by HR directly and told them that "we will file everyone's 485 in first week of July ".
He also said that there is no need to panic because AILA is already threatening USCIS with lawsuit and right now its in negotiations state. (Whatever). He said that the thread from AILA will prevent USCIS from doing the same mischief again in July 2007 to EB2, and EB3 categories. (Somehow I dont buy that, I dont think USCIS is afraid of anyone and they are acting like and independent body ... like the Supreme court working on its own schedule and own whims).
So the thing is...he acknowledges what happened with EB3-other category in June and says that he will file in July first week (good for me and my other co-workers) but he is still sticking to his guns that "It wont happen because USCIS will be scared of AILA".
What USCIS has done for EB3-other worker category is violation of federal regulation and it cannot just ignore the visa bulletins because it feels like doing so and its having a bad day. But nonetheless, the people who make these decisions dont get sued. The agency gets sued, and those lawsuits are fought by internal lawyers who are on USCIS payroll. They get some heat for violating the federal regulation but its not like they would lose their shirt over it.
jonty_11
06-28 12:34 PM
Another rumour is that this rumour abt mid month retro is being spread by lawyers..so that self-filers rush to file and make obvious mistakes and have to hire services of immi lawyers second time around.....!!!
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